Over in another topic in an additional state"s ubraintv-jp.com the conversation forked into a discussion of open lug of black color powder firearms in Florida.The fork in the conversation began with this post: linkThe conversation to be a lively and, i believe, fertile one, however strayed indigenous the object of the OP, for this reason I started this topic to continue it. If the you"re comes in the center go read from the connect above, forward until you fight the write-up that directs you back here.My following reply on object follows...With regard come the "any firearm" I often tend to agree with NAL there - "any firearm" should typical "any the the item in 790.001(6)". Because the legislature claimed antique firearms aren"t firearms, if they meant 790.053 to include antique weapons I think they would have to say "any firearm or antique firearm" - otherwise they produce an ambiguous statute. In criminal instances such ambiguities need to be addressed in donate of the defendant.I disagree with NAL once it concerns the "affirmative defense" aspect. It would be an affirmative defense if 790.001(6) did not exempt antique firearm indigenous the meaning of a firearm and also if 790.053 read like this:
(1) it is unlawful for any kind of person to openly lug on or around his or she person any kind of firearm or electric weapon or device.(2) This ar shall not apply to a human being open transferring an neck firearm.

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Since 790.001(6) does freed antique weapons from the an interpretation of a firearm, and also since 790.053 reads favor this:
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and also in subsection (2), the is unlawful for any kind of person come openly lug on or about his or her person any kind of firearm or electrical weapon or device.<...>
The facets of the crime of open up carrying a weapon are:The accused is a personThey openly lugged on or about their person any kind of firearm or electric weapon or deviceIn order come arrest for a violation the 790.053 the officer demands to have "reasonable probable cause" (I dislike that term, but that"s what the court use) the the item is a firearm (or electric weapon or maker but we"re no talking about that here). In bespeak to make that decision the officer requirements to recognize what a firearm is and isn"t, so he needs to look at 790.001(6):
“Firearm” way any weapon (including a starter gun) i beg your pardon will, is draft to, or may readily be convert to expel a projectile through the action of an explosive; the framework or recipient of any type of such weapon; any type of firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any type of destructive device; or any machine gun. The hatchet “firearm” does not include an neck firearm uneven the neck firearm is provided in the the supervisory board of a crime.
Well, an 1858 percussion lid revolver certainly will (or is designed to) expel a projectile by the activity of an explosive, so it meets the first criteria the a firearm. However then the statute claims it walk not incorporate an "antique firearm" (with exceptions). So he then needs to contemplate definition of an neck in 790.001(1):
“Antique firearm” means any firearm manufactured in or before 1918 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar early kind of ignition system) or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured prior to or after ~ the year 1918, and also any firearm using fixed ammunition produced in or before 1918, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the unified States and also is not readily easily accessible in the ordinary channels of advertisement trade.
Now, in order come arrest he requirements to have reasonable probable reason that the thing on my hip is not "manufactured in or prior to 1918 (including any type of matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or comparable early type of ignition system) or replica thereof". In 99.999999% that the instances the officer handle he will have actually no problem having reasonable probable reason that the item in inquiry is no an antique. In the situation of the Pietta in question, only the most absolutely firearms-ignorant could have together probable cause. If the officer to be able to dear state the he doesn"t recognize anything whatsoever about guns, then he might have the ability to say the reasonably had actually probable cause.Since these firearms are offered cash and also carry v no ID, background check, or waiting duration -- also to convicted felons -- transparent the state, plainly they space not weapons under state legislation -- either the or the State is transforming a remote eye to a massive variety of crimes on a day-to-day basis.Common an interpretation for probable cause is:
A reasonable lot of suspicion, sustained by scenarios sufficiently solid to justification a prudent and cautious person"s id that particular facts are probably true.
That leaves a many wiggle room, but we can"t twist things about here - he has to reasonably have actually PC the I"m guilty come arrest - which is the opposite of what you imply - the if he"s not details it"s an "antique" he should arrest.Again, this is all a logical exercise at this suggest unless someone wants to it is in a check case, and I"m not all set to volunteer for that simply yet. I most likely will go fishing while open carrying the 1858 in ~ some point and see how that goes (since ns have twin insurance versus arrest in the case).
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This is similar to a discussion that has been going on in the NC ubraintv-jp.coms. Around OC in a restaurant where alcohol is sold and also consumed. One group suggests that it is legal through a CHP, the second group says that concealed carry in NC is separate by state constitution from OC. Right here is the thing, nobody from team one is ready to action up come the plate and get arrested come prove they room right. IMO anybody that is that confident is ready to perform what they claim, if they don"t they room not for this reason sure.A person deserve to pretty much get away through OC as lengthy as they room going fishing, or case to be. And OC activists execute OC delivering fishing poles. As of however I have actually heard of none of them protesting v BP firearms. The was make the efforts in Texas and resulted in arrests, i am not certain of the outcome in Texas. Perhaps a Texas member deserve to inform united state of the result of those cases.I would certainly not have a disagreement except for the word "any" i m sorry the legislature put their because that a reason. And also as there is no an interpretation in the password of any, it falls to common definition. If the is the situation IMO, the would include antique firearms, being the antique firearms are any type of firearm. Simply as a NFA firearm would certainly be any type of firearm, or a homemade firearm any firearm.In the instance of a commonwealth GFSZ there is no wording that can include antique firearms and clearly only firearms are within the limitations. I carry out OC antique guns in GFSZ since I am confident the if arrested I will be acquitted, that is exactly how sure i am.The great philosopher Nike claimed "Just execute it!"
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conandanRegular Member
JoinedNov 5, 2012Messages235Locationflorida
What i am noticing v Florida. Lock word legislations so that they have the right to use lock to there interest, not the people"s. Simply look at our state constitution, you have the right to keep and bear arms however the state have the right to regulate how.
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BrianBRegular Member
JoinedApr 27, 2011Messages223LocationFlorida
WalkingWolf said:
Here is the thing, nobody from group one is willing to step up to the plate and also get arrested to prove they are right. IMO anybody that is that optimistic is willing to perform what lock claim, if lock don"t they room not for this reason sure.
I"m as positive as I have the right to be that I"m right and that every state regulation it is legal.Currently i am no in a place to play "test case" due to the fact that the arrest can have serious an unfavorable effects also if i "win". That and also there"s no really anything systematic to be gained by winning in ~ this time. Hopefully in two decades I"ll it is in retired, won"t care around having a misdemeanor arrest record, and if it is tho an open question I"ll pass my time fighting something like this in court.
I would certainly not have actually a disagreement other than for the word "any" i beg your pardon the legislature put their for a reason. And also as over there is no meaning in the password of any, it falls to common definition. If that is the situation IMO, the would include antique firearms, being that antique guns are any type of firearm. Simply as a NFA firearm would be any type of firearm, or a homemade firearm any type of firearm.
In level English the expression "an antique firearm is no a firearm" renders no sense. In stimulate to make it make feeling you need to replace "antique firearm" with something rather -- let"s simply say "doohickey" come make things easy. The expression "a doohickey (as defined) is no a firearm" makes sense. Due to the fact that we understand we can"t use plain English to analyze the state (because level English doesn"t make sense), when the legislature states "any firearm" we have to read it using the 790.001(6) an interpretation of firearm. If they wanted to encompass doohickeys (which room excluded indigenous the meaning of firearm) they"d need to say "any firearm or doohickey". There may be debate around that, yet if there is, that ambiguity has to be addressed in donate of the defendant due to the fact that the legislature fail to it is in clear and made a linguistic mess of things by calling this antique eight "antique firearms" and also then saying they aren"t "firearms".
In the situation of a federal GFSZ there is no wording that can include antique guns and clearly only firearms are within the limitations. I carry out OC antique weapons in GFSZ because I to be confident the if arrested I will be acquitted, the is just how sure ns am.
If ns were ready to tolerate an arrest in the noble search of prove I"m right about something the government disagrees with me about, I"d have actually bigger fish to fry than OC the a BP revolver. Ns hope that as soon as the day comes that i no longer care about such arrests that ns still have the gumption to do something v that freedom.Alas, though i wish ns were a phase 6 Kohlberg reasoner I"m an ext in the range of stage 5. Some day maybe...

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BrianBRegular Member
JoinedApr 27, 2011Messages223LocationFlorida
conandan said:
What i am noticing through Florida. They word laws so that they can use castle to there interest, no the people"s. Simply look at our state constitution, you deserve to keep and also bear arms yet the state can regulate how.
I don"t have to think the is constantly done purposefully - ns think the "bill drafting" is a complicated task. When they do a poor job courts to fill in the blanks, and also sometimes the courts do an equally poor job the guessing what the legislature intended (or the court doesn"t provide a damn what the legislative intended and also is pursuing an agenda).I heard a pseudo-statistic as soon as that something prefer 85% of all legislations passed space to fix problems that were produced by the prior i of various other laws. I think that sounds around right.
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